Before you guys downvote me to hell and call me a delusional Dany stan, I am only looking to have a genuine discussion

NO I am not saying that Daenerys is the MAIN character of the books, but rather the character which the title “The Song of Ice and Fire” is referring to.

Reasons why I think you could argue she is:

- We all know that the most important plot in ASOIAF is the Long Night, and GRRM has already confirmed that “Ice and Fire” refers to Daenerys + her dragons and the White Walkers.

- The entire Targaryen family and history was made primarily as her backstory, and was then branched off into “Fire and Blood.” Daenerys is meant to be the antithesis of house Targaryen, and is the main parallel of Aegon the Conqueror. A lot of Targaryen history is kinda written as a foil to her arc, to show how she is different compared to her ancestors.

- Daenerys has an EXTREME connection to magic and prophecy, I mean if you follow the “Prince that was Promised” prophecy it matches up with her more than any other. (even though I believe the prophecy is more complicated than that). She quite literally brought magic back into the world with the birth of her dragons, which is why the warlocks of Qarth wanted them so badly.

- The House of the Undying visions foreshadow SO many future events, such as Daenerys slaying the lie that is Young Griff’s heritage (The Mummer’s Dragon, Slayer of Lies), the Red Wedding, etc. We also see Daenerys being surrounded by the undead, and Drogon saving her.

- Her story seems so disconnected from the rest, so why would GRRM specifically choose to include the story of a girl all the way at the edge of the world with little connection to the rest of the POVs? Not to mention that as the books go on, she is becoming more and more relevant in almost every other POV.

I feel like no matter what, Daenerys is clearly being set up not to be the ruler of Westeros, but to be the one to see past the lie that is the Iron Throne and probably sacrifice her life to save humanity from the White Walkers. I don’t think she will go mad, but she will take a darker turn and be viewed as an evil usurper to the Westerosi, who will likely hail fAegon as their beloved King who took down Cersei. I also believe that Jon Connington will blow up Kings Landing, and it will be blamed on Daenerys.

What do you think?

Whenever people talk about Sam being brave, they usually bring up the Other, the dragonglass dagger, and the fact that he managed to survive things that would have broken most people.

But I think his finest moment is quietly engineering Jon's election as Lord Commander.

Look at what he's actually dealing with. Cotter Pyke and Denys Mallister are experienced commanders who despise each other. Neither is getting enough votes to win, neither will step aside for the other, and Janos Slynt is gaining ground while they waste time.

Sam walks into this situation with no authority whatsoever.

He figures out that telling either man to support his rival is pointless. So he approaches them separately and presents Jon in completely different terms. To Mallister, Jon is a well-educated young man raised at Winterfell, someone who understands how to deal with lords. To Pyke, he's a proven fighter and a bastard, which is practically a selling point when you're trying to annoy Mallister.

Then Sam lies to both men about whom Stannis intends to appoint if the election fails.

And the remarkable thing is that he's absolutely terrified while doing it.

Randyll Tarly spent years trying to beat courage into Sam because he couldn't imagine a son who didn't command respect through physical strength. Yet here is Sam, frightened out of his mind, doing something that requires an extraordinary understanding of pride, prejudice, and political leverage.

He's not suddenly become fearless. He knows exactly how angry these men could get if they catch him lying, and he goes through with it anyway.

There's also something wonderfully uncomfortable about the morality of it. Sam is deceiving his superiors and manipulating an election. It's not a neat little lesson about honesty triumphing. It's a frightened young man deciding that letting Janos Slynt take command would be worse.

The more I reread that chapter, the more I think Randyll didn't just underestimate his son. He failed to recognize that Sam had the makings of a very capable political leader.

He just wasn't the kind of leader Randyll wanted.

Hello all! Following AKOTSK, my partner became interested in getting to know the series better along with the deeper lore. We were going through quite the jeopardy phase at the time so I decided to make us a jeopardy game to play so that he can learn and we can have fun at the same time. I've got a lot of material but I'd like to open the floor to more suggestions. I'm looking for question recommendations, category recommendations, answers, if you want to put what value you'd judge it at (100, 200, 300, 400, 500) you are more than welcome. He's quite the beginner so keep that in mind but don't be afraid to challenge us. Anything helps! Hopefully this is fun

In universe there a lot of characters who we hear about through their reputation/how they are perceived before we even actually see them on-page. Like Tywin Lannister and Stannis Baratheon in AGOT.

Who do you think is most deserving of/lives up to their reputation. Personally I feel like Stannis has earned his:

Stannis bristled at that. "I defeated your uncle Victarion and his Iron Fleet off Fair Isle, the first time your father crowned himself. I held Storm's End against the power of the Reach for a year, and took Dragonstone from the Targaryens. I smashed Mance Rayder at the Wall, though he had twenty times my numbers. Tell me, turncloak, what battles has the Bastard of Bolton ever won that I should fear him?"

Like love or hate him, Stannis has probably one of the best military records in Westeros. Even Tywin Lannister respects him despite the fact that he smashed at the Blackwater.

And alternatively who is the biggest fraud in the series? Personally I feel like Littlefinger is riding on luck a lot rather than ability.

So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?

Littlefinger laid out his plan to Sansa. She is to marry Harry, reveal herself to the Lords of the Vale, and then take Winterfell with their support

However, as we've seen repeatedly in this series, plans explained in strenuous detail rarely come to pass. In Sansa's story alone, we have the plan for Tyrion to put a child in her and take the North, as well as the plan for her to marry Willas

So what could go wrong?

Harry the Heir

Near the keep, she ran headlong into Ser Lothor Brune and almost knocked him off his feet. "Harry the Heir? Harry the Arse, I say. He's just some upjumped squire."

The theory that Harry dies in the tourney, which is the literal next chapter in Sansa's storyline, isn't new. He's not especially skilled, yet he's participating in a tourney. You also have this quote from Sansa, who hopes for exactly that after he embarrasses her

And may your horse stumble, Harry the Heir, so you fall on your stupid head in your first tilt.

While this idea is generally accepted, what happens next, however, isn't. A key thing to understand is that everyone expects Sweetrobin to die soon

Petyr arched an eyebrow. "When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time."

And as far as Jaime is concerned, the consensus is essentially the same

Jaime remembered little Robert from King's Landing, still sucking on his mother's teats at four. "Arryn won't live long enough to breed."

Whether Sweetrobin actually dies or not is irrelevant. What matters is that people expect him to die soon, and they'll act on that presumption

So

• Harry dies at the tourney

• Sweetrobin is expected to die soon

Under these circumstances, what is Littlefinger's next move?

Going North ASAP

Lysa intended for Sansa to marry Sweetrobin. While Sansa cannot currently marry again because her marriage to Tyrion is valid and has not been set aside, the fact that it was unconsummated means it can eventually be annulled. A betrothal to Sweetrobin, while revealing Sansa's identity, would therefore be the fallback option in the event of Harry's death

However, this gives Littlefinger a reason to go to Winterfell and the North ASAP, even with Winter here.

Given Sweetrobin's health, they don't know how much longer he has left. They therefore need to make use of any betrothal to the boy to secure the swords needed to take Winterfell

Catelyn…
And this is canon, too. I didn’t make up or invent any of these words or lines.✌️🦁

He forgot his responsibilities as a father to his children.
He forgot his promises to Cersei.
He forgot his Kingsguard vows to King Tommen.
He forgot his Kingsguard vows to King Aerys.

But he never forgot his oath to Catelyn…

He went so far as to give Brienne his Valyrian steel sword, Oathkeeper, so that she could protect Sansa. And when Brienne told him that she had found Sansa, Jaime was willing to put himself in danger without hesitation.

He may have forgotten so many of his other vows and responsibilities…
but he never forgot the promise he made to Catelyn Stark.

Catelyn is the most important thing in Jaime’s entire life.🤔
Does the Lion want to swallow the Trout?

Artist:
JaimeCat: MathiaArkoniel | DeviantArt

With Oberyn being dead, and Doran being unable of leading armed forces given his poor health, who should be the one(s) to lead Dornish army into war if Dorne gets involved in future conflicts, such as them joining Aegon and Jon Connington's cause against the Lannisters and their allies during The Winds of Winter?

Which Dornish figures could take the mantle of general for Dornish forces?

I certainely don't see the Sand Snakes, despite what they claim and view themselves to be, especially given how poor of a strategist and tactician Obara is (her plan to avenge her father by attacking the Marcher Lords Castles and then Oldtown, out of petty hatred against her birthplace, is perhaps the second worst military plan in the series after Balon's plan of invasion of the North).

Aeroh Hotah is Doran's chief of guards, but him being a foreigner and not a noble disqualify him to be a military leader.

Anders Yronwood, as the head of House Yronwood, and thus Dorne's most powerful Lord after the Martells themselves, and him being close enough to Doran to know about his revenge plans and having been Quentyn's mentor, seems to be the best candidate to me.

If not him, who else could take the mantle?

I'll go first with one of my favorite examples from The World of Ice and Fire:

In Essos, there exists a wall (it's actually a mountain range) that extends across the entire continent, splitting it into two parts like the Wall of Westeros.

They even have their own Night's Watch, but rather than being protected by a dozen deserted castles and a few thousand incels freezing to death, the Bone Mountains offer only three viable passages (for larger groups and armies, while small parties can still make their way through with a proper guide like over at Westeros' Wall), with each passage being protected by a fortress city, 'manned' entirely by a sisterhood of warrior maids, who exclusively walk around with their tits out.

To believe that the stand of the Three Thousand of Qohor put an end to Dothraki dreams of conquest, however, suggests a complacency akin to that of the High King of Sarnor’s when the horselords first came boiling out of the east. Wiser men know that it is only a matter of time until the khalasars unite again under some great khal and turn west once more in search of new conquests.
The Dothraki have oft attempted to extend their power eastward as well, but there they have found the Bone Mountains to be an almost insurmountable obstacle. Those bleak, inhospitable peaks form an immense stone wall between the horselords and the riches of the Further East. Only three passes exist large enough to bring an army through, and athwart those stand the mighty fortress cities Bayasabhad, Samyriana, and Kayakayanaya, defended by tens of thousands of redoubtable female warriors, the last remnants of the great kingdom of Hyrkoon, which once flourished beyond the Bones in what is now known as the Great Sand Sea. Many a khal has died beneath their walls, and still those walls stand inviolate.

They even have their own last hero who is one of like at least half a dozen mythical figures, all claimed to be the same one true Messiah by various cultures who think it was them that saved everybody from the Long Night:

How long the darkness endured no man can say, but all agree that it was only when a great warrior—known variously as Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser—arose to give courage to the race of men and lead the virtuous into battle with his blazing sword Lightbringer that the darkness was put to rout, and light and love returned once more to the world.

The lore is actually ridiculous, these bad bitches are said to be some of the fiercest warriors on the entire planet, and they have seemingly been smashing armies beneath their walls for thousands of years, including a bunch of Khals in recent centuries.

It is said that the fortress cities of Bayasabhad, Samyriana, and Kayakayanaya are defended by women out of the belief that those who give birth are the only ones permitted to take life at will. The True Account of Addam of Duskendale’s Journeys, a merchant’s account of his alleged travels in eastern Essos, provides little further insight into these matters, or any others that scholars are interested in, and instead spends most of its time finding ways to remind readers that the warrior women walk about bare-breasted and decorate their cheeks and nipples with ruby studs and iron rings.

But isn't much of the lore in TWOIF, especially in regards to Essos the further you go, highly questionable? This all sounds way too ridiculous to be true!

... you might say.

A hundred merchants and traders were unloading their goods and setting up in stalls when they arrived, yet even so the great market seemed hushed and deserted compared to the teeming bazaars that Dany remembered from Pentos and the other Free Cities. The caravans made their way to Vaes Dothrak from east and west not so much to sell to the Dothraki as to trade with each other, Ser Jorah had explained. The riders let them come and go unmolested, so long as they observed the peace of the sacred city, did not profane the Mother of Mountains or the Womb of the World, and honored the crones of the dosh khaleen with the traditional gifts of salt, silver, and seed. The Dothraki did not truly comprehend this business of buying and selling.
Dany liked the strangeness of the Eastern Market too, with all its queer sights and sounds and smells. She often spent her mornings there, nibbling tree eggs, locust pie, and green noodles, listening to the high ululating voices of the spellsingers, gaping at manticores in silver cages and immense grey elephants and the striped black-and-white horses of the Jogos Nhai. She enjoyed watching all the people too: dark solemn Asshai’i and tall pale Qartheen, the bright-eyed men of Yi Ti in monkey-tail hats, warrior maids from Bayasabhad, Shamyriana, and Kayakayanaya with iron rings in their nipples and rubies in their cheeks, even the dour and frightening Shadow Men, who covered their arms and legs and chests with tattoos and hid their faces behind masks. The Eastern Market was a place of wonder and magic for Dany.

But they are absolutely real, they totally walk around bare-chested, and Dany meets some of them hanging around Vaes Dothrak in Book 1.

I know that, ironically enough, the Dothraki have an entire holy no-PvP city ruled by a sort of guest right, but these Gigastacies are still flaunting their tits in a society where gang-raping foreigners in the streets is not only acceptable, but very explicitily considered 'the polite thing to do', which is absolutely crazy.

Even along these well-traveled routes, crossing the Bones remains grueling and hazardous… and safe passage comes at a price, for on the far side of the mountains stand three mighty fortress cities, last remnants of the once-great Patrimony of Hyrkoon.
[...]
Many accounts inform us that the mountain warriors of Kayakayanaya, Samyriana, and Bayasabhad are all women, daughters of the Great Fathers who rule these cities, where girls learn to ride and climb before they learn to walk, and are schooled in the arts of the bow, the spear, the knife, and the sling from earliest childhood. Lomas Longstrider himself tells us that there are no fiercer fighters on all the earth. As for their brothers, the sons of the Great Fathers, ninety-nine of every hundred are gelded when they reach the age of manhood and live out their lives as eunuchs, serving their cities as scribes, priests, scholars, servants, cooks, farmers, and craftsmen. Only the most promising males, the largest and strongest and most comely, are permitted to mature and breed and become Great Fathers themselves in their turns. Maester Naylin’s Rubies and Iron—named for the penchant of the warrior women to wear iron rings in their nipples and rubies in their cheeks—speculates on the circumstances that led to such strange customs.

Many a Maester even seems to dedicate whole entire books to these amazing warriors maids for some reason, and oh, apparently it's also common belief in Westeros that they snippety-snip 99% of all men in their society, while somehow still ending up being ruled by the remaining 1% pure literal breeding bulls alpha-sigma males, who are required to maintain the peakest of all warrior cultures on Planetos.

Because at the end of the day, they are of course, still w*men. Obviously they can't be in charge, that would be ridiculous.

Before the Dry Times and the coming of the Great Sand Sea, the Jogos Nhai fought many a bloody border war against the Patrimony of Hyrkoon as well, poisoning rivers and wells, burning towns and cities, and carrying off thousands into slavery on the plains, whilst the Hyrkoon for their part were sacrificing tens of thousands of the zorse-riders to their dark and hungry gods.

lol

There seems to be a sort of belief that the realm was "divided in half" in this civil war but the only evidence of this I could find was Dunk's claim in The Sworn Sword and Dunk, bless his soul, is not the sharpest tool in the shed and can't even define the word half. Half the houses? Half the population? This reads more as hype than anything else.

In fact this rebellion was deliberately written as one-sided and overhyped. The Blackfyres were a loud minority. No doubt capable in the military sense but a minority nonetheless.

The biggest giveaway of Blackfyres unpopularity comes from The Sworn Sword and Eustace Osgrey himself:

...if Manfred Lothston had proved true instead of treacherous . . . if storms had not delayed Lord Bracken's sailing with the Myrish crossbowmen...

At least one house betrayed Daemon for Daeron in the event of Redgrass Field. Another important point is the Myrish crossbowmen. Daemon was so desperate by the end that he tried employing foreigners to fight the battle for him. That's another sign he was losing support and the war rapidly. Maybe the realm was at some point divided "in half" but Daemon kept losing more and more support. Lothstons were the last of the houses who betrayed him.

Another point is there was seemingly divisions even amongst Daemon supporters. In the events of The Mystery Knight, Gormon Peake speaks poorly of Bittersteel and says he can't be trusted because he's a bastard. That points to some sort of bad blood which could only he coming from the first rebellion. Ironically enough, some people in Daemon's party were bastardphobic which means they likely didn't see Daemon as such. But it did not stop them from beefing with Daemon's close ally and supporter Bittersteel.

And can't forget Yronwoods. Stony Dornish house. Meaning the marcher lords who supported Daemon have definitely fought against Yronwoods before. Another division. They all probably put aside their differences in this war, in order to get whatever benefits Daemon had promised them. But after a time, cracks probably showed.

Such conflicting ideals can cause friction and poor performance too which is seemingly another thing that happened in the first Blackfyre Rebellion. It's a miracle this faction lasted as long as it did.

There seems to be a belief that Daemon was allegedly close to winning a war when I could find no such evidence of this claim and the fact they were losing support and desperate enough to turn to mercenaries is the antithesis to that belief. The Blackryes had gotten weak and suffered many casualties, enough to push them to gather foreign support.

Also most of the notable houses, from Tyrells to Arryns had declared for Daeron. While Daemon's most notable supporters were House Peake. Which ultimately boils down to this rebellion being very rushed and poorly-planned on Daemon's part. Or rather, Bloodraven ratting him out did put a dent in his plans and prevented better preparations.

(We don't know if Torwyn Greyjoy who also betrayed the Blackfyre cause was from this era as well but that's another traitor for Blackfyres.)

In the immediate Lannister family while Circei and Tywin hated Tyrion inmediatly Jaime never did so I want to hear why people think that is I mean Jaime also lost his mother just like Circei so why would he not hate Tyrion same as Circei (not saying he should just making the point that the reason Circei hates Tyrion Jaime could also hate him for the same reason but he doesn’t)

I find it fascinating that Jaime always follows Circei’s lead since they were teenagers but hating Tyrion is not something he’s willing to follow her in even though he knows she doesn’t like that he’s nice to Tyrion.

Background

Plenty of the reasons the ASOIAF is what it has become are due to decisions that made in the moment likely seemed like the best course of action. We have the benefit of the perfect vision that hindsight gives us so we are able to look back and complain from our keyboards. The funny thing is, even with hindsight most readers can't even agree on what the perfect course was for steering the ASOIAF rudder. In this post I thought it would be interesting to take a look at what might have been the best way to write the ASOIAF series.

If interested: Dead Branches in the Garden: Abandoned/Changed Plotlines of Ice & Fire

So Spake Martin (SSM)

George said the same thing in not as many words. Basically if it was up to him (and I am sure most authors) they would be able to finish it first:

If I had won 250 million in the lottery back in 1996 you wouldn’t have seen any of these books yet. I wouldn’t have let A Game of Thrones out of the house until I finished the entire story and decided how many volumes it needed to be and where the breaks needed to be. I could be writing The Winds of Winter and have something, and I could change something in A Game of Thrones to lay in the groundwork and make it fit. That is the perfect way to do it. But it is the way that most of us don’t have the luxury to do it. SSM, GamePro Interview: 6 Aug 2003

A Trilogy

When GRRM first started the series, he envisioned it as an "epic trilogy" in a rough outline. There would have been three books (AGoT/ADwD/TWoW) covering the Three Main Events of ASOIAF (War of the Five Kings/Dany's Invasion/War for the Dawn):

When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, 'A Song of Ice and Fire

and:

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

If interested: Changes to GRRM's Original Outline

A 5 Year Gap

As GRRM wrote, he realized he wasn't making much progress from a timing perspective from what he had hoped would be a "Generational Saga" for 5 Central Characters. At one point he hoped to end AGoT with the Red Wedding, but kept expanding the story. As the series grew in the # of books, GRRM decided to insert what would have been a 5 year gap allowing for characters to age, dragons to grow and skill to increase.

As he planned for this 5 year gap, GRRM wrapped up all of the POVs in ASoS with nice ending points: A Quick Look at the End of ASOS and the Setup for the 5 Year Gap.

The Mega Prologue

Since GRRM could find a way to get POV's to Certain Locations such as the Iron Islands/Dorne, GRRM decided at first to open what would have been ADWD with an Iron Islands Prologue and later a single Dornish one (if interested: Thoughts on the Early Versions of the Mega Prologue) before expanding it to what would become an ~250 page monstrosity that had its own individual chapters.

I have ripped apart the idea of my original 250-page prologue for the beginning of A Feast for Crows. I decided it didn’t work as the prologue, but I am not dropping any of it. I am just carrying all those characters through as new viewpoint characters. I needed to continue with those stories, and I thought it wasn’t working to have 250 pages before the reader got to any of the characters he liked from the preceding three books. So, those chapters are still there, but they are now mixed in and around other chapters. Since the Asha Greyjoy and Victarian Greyjoy chapters picked up practically in mid-sentence -SSM, GamePro Interview: 6 Aug 2003

Splitting AFFC/ADWD by Location

As GRRM wrote what he was planning to be ADWD, he ran into a major spacing problem. Instead of rewriting some chapters for what would be a good ending point, he decided to break the book up by location (as he expected ADWD to come out a yearish later).

You were forced, for reasons of length, to split A Feast for Crows into A Feast for Crows and A Dance of Dragons.  Do you feel that worked out okay?
George R. R. Martin:  Yeah.  Well, we won’t know for sure until I finish Dance, but yes, I do think it worked pretty well.  Part of me regrets having to do that.  It would have been something to say for having it all in one book, but it would have been a very long book, and it wouldn’t be out yet.  I mean, you’d be looking at waiting another year or something until I finished it.  So, I think this way worked pretty well.  Of the realistic alternatives I had, I thought it was the best choice.  Not only the split, but the nature of the split, which was dividing it by character rather than simply chopping it in the middle. -SSM, Afterburn SF Interview: 2006

The ADWD Momentum

After finishing ADWD in spring 2011 (slaying Kong), GRRM not only had a ton of material already written for TWoW (~200 pages were finished) as he noted:

Just kicked Aeron Damphair's scraggly arse out of DANCE WITH DRAGONS. He only had the only chapter, and it will work better early in the next book than late in this one. (That's how it looks to me today, anyway. I reserve the right to change my mind).
So DANCE has gotten a smidge shorter. But is still not done.
The good news is that I seem to have written more than a hundred pages of THE WINDS OF WINTER already. -SSM, Dancing: 31 July 2010

and we see on this placard from Cushing. These chapters included Mercy, Arianne I and II, The Forsaken and Alayne.

But he also had a ton of great writing momentum as well (which is extremely important to how he writes, with a focus on individual POVs not the linear story). Instead of continuing to write, he instead went on tour (he only writes from home) for ADWD.

“I was red hot on the book and I put it aside for six months” he says. “I was so into it. I was pushing so hard that I was writing very well. I should have just gone on from there, because I was so into it and it was moving so fast then. But I didn’t because I had to switch gears into the editing phase and then the book tour. The iron does cool off, for me especially.” -SSM, EW Interview: 3 April 2015

Starting a TV Show w/o a Finished Series

One fallacy that should also be brought up is the decision to start Game of Thrones when they did. Season 1 premiered a few months before the publishing of ADWD, in April 2011. This gave GRRM ~ 5 years to finish TWoW before the show would pass him.

GRRM infamously posted about trying to finish the series (and I hate dealing in things that are just rumors but it is rumored he thought he was done but didn't like it and ripped a ton out) before the show surpassed him but was unable.

8-12 Books

As GRRM mentions in the first quote I shared, if it was up to him he wouldn't have published anything until he was done, allowing him to go back and change things early that would foreshadow better, etc.

Due to how GRRM writes (gardener) and the current pacing of the books, this would likely require him to write anywhere from 8-12 books to give the series justice (note that we technically haven't started Act II of his original outline and that AFFC/ADWD are just basically 2/3 of a giant book without the climax).

If interested: With No Constraints, How Big Could the ASOIAF Story End Up? & How there could be 8 books instead of 7

The Butterfly Effect

GRRM brings up the butterfly effect quite often with regards changes made by the show (ex: Mago) and especially HotD (House of the Dragon: Maelor & Butterflies - Did GRRM Get His Way?):

I’ve talked to Dan and Dave about the butterfly effect — you’re familiar with the classic Ray Bradbury short story? A Sound of Thunder. One of my favorites. -SSM, EW Interview: 12 July 2011

but this can also be used with regard to the changes he has made on the series. When he changes something drastically (like the Greyjoy Brothers Three not all going to Slaver's Bay together) it can affect his foreshadowing. This is one reason that while the history and lore have grown as the main series progressed, the visions/dreams are less intentional.

If interested: Time: A River or a Butterfly?

Other Changes

We know that GRRM has other small regrets from the series that might have improved it overall. For instance:

• Not Making the Young Wolf a POV
• Dany vs. Cersei as Rulers
• Killing Off a Character He Regrets

TLDR: There have been numerous points in the writing process of the ASOIAF series, where GRRM made decisions that had lasting impacts on the series' direction. This ranges from the number of books to a 5 year gap, mega prologue and splitting AFFC/ADWD by location. With the benefit of hindsight what do you think are the best/worst decisions and what would you have him do in a perfect world?

The Purple Wedding and it's fallout is massive and that's with things quieted down beforehand because of the Red Wedding. But if the Purple Wedding happens earlier then for one thing the Freys don't do the Red Wedding. I wonder if Bolton might still try something independently, but I doubt it

Then with a power vacuum from Tywin's death I think Littlefinger would switch sides and have Lysa join the war. Also Lysa probably is killed by him because he'll try to win Kat over with the Vale's support and having saved Sansa.

With the Vale on their side all the sudden Robb is in a much better position. He can sail troops from Gulltown to return to the North. The Riverlands will be helped out by the reinforcements from the Vale.

With the Lannister's being less secure because of Robb still being around Dorne will probably be more willing to follow the Sand Snakes into war.

Stannis is probably the biggest wild card. On one hand Robb would want to help the Watch, but he might not be able to in time depending on the timing. If Stannis doesn’t go North then I think he might go South to Dorne. If they worked together then the Lannisters and Tyrells are surrounded by enemies.

But the Dornish do want to put Myarcella on the throne so probably not. But without Tywin, Stannis might be able to get the Stormlands to rise up again.

The possibility I think would be the most interesting would be if Stannis still went North. Robb wouldn't be far behind in helping the Wall and he'd want to make sure Stannis is trying to go after him. Even with them both being as immovable as they are I think they'd come to some sort of agreement out of mutual respect.

Robb couldn't want to betray his bannermen who crowned him, and Stannis won't let them become independent. Though there could be a middle ground. Especially if Bran and Rickon are found to still be alive I think Rickon and Shireen could be betrothed. Similar to how Dorne was brought into the 7 Kingdoms via marriage

Also the Ironborn might try to pivot to the Reach and Westerlands instead of the North but idk. Might depend on what shape Theon is in, and who knows what when

If iirc, the Long Night arrived to Esos, the Rhoyne froze, and even in Yi Ti there are written stories about how they fought the deads.

How do you think this will be handled in the books?

I would be completly disapointed if it has the same treatment as the TV series, the Others passing trough the Wall and all ending in Winterfell... Is a global threat, is the worlds end. Is just silly 99% of worlds population doesnt even know what happened.

My bet is it will just affect westeros, but will compromise all the kingdoms. Probably Euron would help to the chaos and advance of the Others. Maybe even breaching the Wall to them, or something like that. I think he will be responsable of some kind of cataclysm in anyway.

But what are your theories?

Is my understanding that trial by combat is considered sacred and that can’t be denied (at least to highborn). But does the evidence need to be in doubt for this right to be valid? Like, I don’t really think that Oberyn could have just stabbed Tywin in front of the entire court during Tyrion’s trial and demand trial by combat.
Also, I heard that only highborn pratiche trial by combat, but then how that would work in a dispute between a noble and a non noble?

I have just finished reading ADWD (for the second time, my first read through was about 10 years ago).

What the hell do i do now?

I want more!

Can anyone point me to a comprehensive list of all and any extra bits/teasers of tWOW that have been released?
/anything else worth reading?

Also i am keen to understand more about theories and what people think is going to happen, i know there are a lot of absolutely unhinged theories floating around but are there any really established , well-supported theories that seem likely to be true that i should know about?

Sidenote: i have already read AKOTSK, F&B and TWOIAF….its really the unofficial stuff I am looking for now :)

I noticed this strange consensus that some would love to blame a single man rather than enjoy the complexity of history.

Hence. I wrote this based on Jean Kirkpatrick’s epic speech in 1984

They said that Rhaegar Targaryen was obsessed with mythicism and ended his family .Well. Aegon V, whose obsession of mythicism ended in catastrophe , half of the family dead, half of them deeply scared. This event set Targaryen to the path to doom and kickoff the Prince's depression which leads him to mythicism.But they don't blame Aegon V.

They blamed Rhaegar Targaryen instead.

But then, somehow, they always blame Rhaegar first.

When Elia Martell married Rhaegar purely for political reasons. She don't love him and has been playing for power from the start. "Justice for Elia" crowd didn't blame this miss match . This Dornish scheme of playing for the iron throne.

Instead ,they blamed Rhaegar Targaryen.

But then, they always blame Rhaegar first.

When the great houses of Westeros had already spent years binding Stark, Tully, Arryn and Baratheon together through marriages, The famous STAB alliance has already been planning to defy the crown. They didn’t blame this acts of treason and this mounting political crisis that had begun long before Rhaegar and Lyanna disappeared .

They blamed Rhaegar Targaryen.

But then, they always blame Rhaegar first.

When Brandon Stark rode to King’s Landing , spreading unconfirmed rumours to vilify the prince along the way with no evidence at all , then he demanded that the prince “come out and die,” placing himself in the hands of an mad king, Brandon clearly thought he had enough backing for him to act this disrespectfully , but They didn't blame this act of provocation and treason; they blamed Rhaegar Targaryen.

But then, they always blame Rhaegar first.

When Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard Stark and demanded the heads of Eddard Stark and Robert Baratheon, Aerys eventually made the situation couldn't be manageable, kick started the war. But they didn't blame the king. What? Because he was insane?

They blamed Rhaegar Targaryen.

But then, they always blame Rhaegar first.

When Tywin Lannister entered King’s Landing, sacked the city, and his men murdered Elia and her children after Rhaegar was already dead, but they didn’t blame the men who ordered and committed those crimes ,

they blamed Rhaegar Targaryen.

But then, they always blame Rhaegar first.

But! Westeros knows better!

Westeros knows better!

The people of Westeros know that it's dangerous to blame a single man for terrible problems that he did not cause

People in Westeros know that Rhaegar Targaryen didn’t cause the problem of Elia ’s health,

or Aerys’s madness,

or the alliances already forming among Stark, Tully, Arryn and Baratheon, 

or Brandon Stark's reckless behaviour.

or Aerys decision to kill Brandon and Rickard,

or Tywin Lannister’s betrayal

or the murder of Elia and Rhaenys, 

or the destruction of most of his family and dynasty.

or these 2 decades of Chaos in this land because the new king could give a less damn

They say he was mad.

Well dare I suggest it's madness to ignore the complexity of history, the opinion of people, and the intention of GOD (GRRM). So that you can have your own headcanon.

Honesty i have several picks myself.

Sword of the morning

Lord reaper of pyke (ironic considering i despise the ironborn. A literal nation of scums)

Lord Commander of the nights watch

Nights king

Brandon the burner

Brandon ice eyes

Brandon the shipwright

Bran the builder

I mean my favorite Targaryen titles are… that describe something they did or a personality trait of his.

Like

Maegor the Cruel

Jaehaerys the Concillator

Good Queen Alysanne

Aegon the Broken

Baelor the Blessed

Aegon the Unworthy

Aegon the Unlikely

Daena the Defiant

Daeron the Drunken

Baelor the Breakspear (okay not really an adjective but it cool)

Aemon the Dragonknight (same)

Aegon the Conqueror

Aegon the Uncrowned

Daenerys the Breaker of Chain, the Mother, and etc

Than we have

Daeron the Young Dragon. It cool but unless one know the history behind it than it just mean he young and a member of House Targaryen.

Background

While GRRM has encountered many problems in his writing process for the ASOIAF ranging from the Mega Prologue to the 5 Year Gap to the Meereenese Knot, one small problem has persisted since the beginning of the series and that is just how GRRM plans to use the glass candles. In this post I plan to look into drafts, outlines, abandon plots, published material and SSMs (So Spake Martins) to look at what we know about the glass candles in the ASOIAF series.

If interested: Dead Branches in the Garden: Abandoned/Changed Plotlines of Ice & Fire

Published Information on Glass Candles

I set this post up a few different ways and decided it was best to show the published material (and see how little there is) on glass candles.

ACOK, Daenerys V: Urrathon Nightwalker

Our first mention of glass candles in the series has to do with one beginning to burn after the birth of Dany's dragons in the house of Urrathon Nightwalker Euron Greyjoy:

Xaro looked troubled. "And so it was, then. But now? I am less certain. It is said that the glass candles are burning in the house of Urrathon Night-Walker, that have not burned in a hundred years. 

If interested: Then & Now: Qarth & the Early Importance of the Visitors in Dany's Chapters

AFFC, Prologue

After Urrathon/Euron glass candles are not mentioned again until the AFFC, Prologue which is where GRRM does his first big info drop on glass candles. He tells us several things such as:

• Glass Burning in Marwyn's Chambers

Similar to Urrathon, there is now a glass candle burning in Marwyn's chambers. The citadel seemingly has four candles brought over from Valyria:

“Archmaester Marwyn believes in many curious things,” he said, “but he has no more proof of dragons than Mollander. Just more sailors’ stories.”
“You’re wrong,” said Leo. “There is a glass candle burning in the Mage’s chambers.”
A hush fell over the torchlit terrace. Armen sighed and shook his head. Mollander began to laugh. The Sphinx studied Leo with his big black eyes. Roone looked lost.
Pate knew about the glass candles, though he had never seen one burn. They were the worst-kept secret of the Citadel. It was said that they had been brought to Oldtown from Valyria a thousand years before the Doom. He had heard there were four; one was green and three were black, and all were tall and twisted.

• What the Citadel Currently Uses Them For

The Citadel currently uses the candles as a lesson:

“What are these glass candles?” asked Roone.
Armen the Acolyte cleared his throat. “The night before an acolyte says his vows, he must stand a vigil in the vault. No lantern is permitted him, no torch, no lamp, no taper … only a candle of obsidian. He must spend the night in darkness, unless he can light that candle. Some will try. The foolish and the stubborn, those who have made a study of these so-called higher mysteries. Often they cut their fingers, for the ridges on the candles are said to be as sharp as razors. Then, with bloody hands, they must wait upon the dawn, brooding on their failure. Wiser men simply go to sleep, or spend their night in prayer, but every year there are always a few who must try.”
“Yes.” Pate had heard the same stories. “But what’s the use of a candle that casts no light?”
“It is a lesson,” Armen said, “the last lesson we must learn before we don our maester’s chains. The glass candle is meant to represent truth and learning, rare and beautiful and fragile things. It is made in the shape of a candle to remind us that a maester must cast light wherever he serves, and it is sharp to remind us that knowledge can be dangerous. Wise men may grow arrogant in their wisdom, but a maester must always remain humble. The glass candle reminds us of that as well. Even after he has said his vow and donned his chain and gone forth to serve, a maester will think back on the darkness of his vigil and remember how nothing that he did could make the candle burn … for even with knowledge, some things are not possible.”

• The Candles are made of Obsidian/Dragonglass

They do not burn and cast strange shadows:

Lazy Leo burst out laughing. “Not possible for you, you mean. I saw the candle burning with my own eyes.”
“You saw some candle burning, I don’t doubt,” said Armen. “A candle of black wax, perhaps.”
“I know what I saw. The light was queer and bright, much brighter than any beeswax or tallow candle. It cast strange shadows and the flame never flickered, not even when a draft blew through the open door behind me.”
Armen crossed his arms. “Obsidian does not burn.”
“Dragonglass,” Pate said. “The smallfolk call it dragonglass.” Somehow that seemed important.
“They do,” mused Alleras, the Sphinx, “and if there are dragons in the world again …” -AFFC, Prologue

• Alleras/Sarella's Dreams

and I wonder what type of dreams Alleras/Sarella has:

The Sphinx reached for his bowcase. "It's bed for me as well. I expect I'll dream of dragons and glass candles." -AFFC, Prologue

AFFC, Samwell IV: Summerhall (maybe)

One of my favorite little underdiscussed parts of the Tragedy of Summerhall is how there were potentially glass candles involved:

Even when he did recall, his talk was all a jumble. He spoke of dreams and never named the dreamer, of a glass candle that could not be lit and eggs that would not hatch. He said the sphinx was the riddle, not the riddler, whatever that meant. -AFFC, Samwell IV

AFFC, Samwell V: Marwyn Exposition

In AFFC, Sam V we find out that not only does Marwyn have a working glass candle, but he gives the reader all the info that GRRM was willing to give up regarding them as Sam arrives in Oldtown:

• Burning Glass Candle

A fire was burning in the hearth, beneath a copper kettle. Whatever was inside of it smelled burned. Aside from that, the only light came from a tall black candle in the center of the room.
The candle was unpleasantly bright. There was something queer about it. The flame did not flicker, even when Archmaester Marwyn closed the door so hard that papers blew off a nearby table. The light did something strange to colors too. Whites were bright as fresh-fallen snow, yellow shone like gold, reds turned to flame, but the shadows were so black they looked like holes in the world. Sam found himself staring. The candle itself was three feet tall and slender as a sword, ridged and twisted, glittering black. “Is that … ?”
“… obsidian,” said the other man in the room, a pale, fleshy, pasty-faced young fellow with round shoulders, soft hands, close-set eyes, and food stains on his robes.
“Call it dragonglass.” Archmaester Marwyn glanced at the candle for a moment. “It burns but is not consumed.”

• Glass Candle Sorcery/Usage

Marwyn then provides some information on the use of these candles:

“What feeds the flame?” asked Sam.
“What feeds a dragon’s fire?” Marwyn seated himself upon a stool. “All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire. The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man’s dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. Do you think that might be useful, Slayer?”
“We would have no more need of ravens.”
“Only after battles.” The archmaester peeled a sourleaf off a bale, shoved it in his mouth, and began to chew it. “Tell me all you told our Dornish sphinx. I know much of it and more, but some small parts may have escaped my notice.” -AFFC, Samwell V

• The Citadel

“Who do you think killed all the dragons the last time around? Gallant dragonslayers armed with swords?” He spat. “The world the Citadel is building has no place in it for sorcery or prophecy or glass candles, much less for dragons. Ask yourself why Aemon Targaryen was allowed to waste his life upon the Wall, when by rights he should have been raised to archmaester. His blood was why. He could not be trusted. No more than I can.”
“What will you do?” asked Alleras, the Sphinx.
“Get myself to Slaver’s Bay, in Aemon’s place. The swan ship that delivered Slayer should serve my needs well enough. The grey sheep will send their man on a galley, I don’t doubt. With fair winds I should reach her first.” Marwyn glanced at Sam again, and frowned. “You … you should stay and forge your chain. If I were you, I would do it quickly. A time will come when you’ll be needed on the Wall.” He turned to the pasty-faced novice. “Find Slayer a dry cell. He’ll sleep here, and help you tend the ravens.”
“B-b-but,” Sam sputtered, “the other archmaesters … the Seneschal … what should I tell them?”
“Tell them how wise and good they are. Tell them that Aemon commanded you to put yourself into their hands. Tell them that you have always dreamed that one day you might be allowed to wear the chain and serve the greater good, that service is the highest honor, and obedience the highest virtue. But say nothing of prophecies or dragons, unless you fancy poison in your porridge.” -AFFC, Samwell V

Proof of Power of the Candle

From using the candle, Marwyn and Co. already knew of Sam's coming:

Ours was no chance encounter, Sam. The Mage sent me to snatch you up before you spoke to Theobald. He knew that you were coming.”
“How?”
Alleras nodded at the glass candle.
Sam stared at the strange pale flame for a moment, then blinked and looked away. -AFFC, Samwell V

ADWD, Daenerys II: Quaithe's Warning

Our final mention of glass candles in the main series is Quaithe's cryptic warning to Dany:

“No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun’s son and the mummer’s dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal.” -ADWD, Daenerys II

If interested: The Glass Candles are Burning/Perfumed Seneschal

Outline/Draft Material

As I mentioned the above material is pretty limited, but GRRM originally wanted to quite a bit more. We can look at some of the drafts that users have shared over the years from visits to Cushing Library and see what GRRM was trying to setup.

Drafts from The Cushing Library

• ACoK Draft - The Prologue

From their post on the ACOK and ASOS drafts, gsteff explains how GRRM was struggling as far back as ACoK with how to introduce the glass candles (he was even writing his editors). But in draft versions of the Prologue, we see him trying to introduce them:

• ACOK June 1997, p27
• ACOK June 1997, p28
• ACOK June 1997, p29

Most of this info made it into AFFC, but as they note, the most interesting part is that GRRM tried to make the candles being lit to coincide with the arrival of the Red Comet and other mentions in the ACoK, Prologue draft included:

Yet when he closed his eyes, he could still see the pale bright flame of the glass candle, burning steadily against the inside of his eyelids. As he watched, it grew into the comet, red and fiery and vividly alive amidst the darkness of his dreams.

and then his thoughts on Mel:

She knows why the glass candle burns, what the comet portends. She is wiser than you, old man.

In retrospect, the last line of this chapter was originally written with the mentions of these glass candle. Here's the published version:

And the cowbells peeled in his antlers, singing fool, fool, fool while the red woman looked down on him in pity, the candle flames dancing in her red, red eyes.

• ACOK Draft - Other Mentions

If we remember how all maesters have their own glass candle, Pycelle apparently has one too and Tyrion notices this as he searches Pycelle's chambers:

Behind the shelves, hidden behind an ornate lacquer screen, he stumbled on a tiny windowless alcove where a tall black candle was burning atop a carved marble shelf. Something about it made Tyrion want to examine it more closely, but he knew he was running short of time. He made a hasty retreat back to the table, and was peeling another egg when Grand Maester Pycelle came creeping back down the stair.

with Pycelle stating the following after being ambushed by Tyrion/Vale Clansmen while in bed with a whore:

"My lord, please, you must heed me, you are in danger, all of you, grave danger, the realm, there's so much you do not know, secrets, the hidden mysteries... the glass candle is burning, it's true, I swear, spare me and I'll show you... the Conclave... you must send me to Oldtown at once..."

which gsteff goes on to mention how the rest of the book does have mentions of missing maesters. As Theon arrives at Pkye and asks where his old maester Qalen is, Helya replied:

He sleeps in the sea. Wendamyr keeps the ravens now, but he is gone south to Oldtown on some maester's business.

And as Bran is listening to petitioners at Winterfell in Bran 2, there's this altered description of Leobald Tallhart's visit:

He talked of weather portents and the slack wits of the smallfolk for what seemed like hours, complained that his maester had left them to visit the Citadel, and told how his nephew Benfred itched for battle.

counter to what happens in the published AFFC material, where Marwyn is the only one worried, the Citadel in the draft considers the glass candles a big problem and call a conclave.

All of this was removed from ACOK except for the single line about a glass candle burning in Urrathon Nightwalker's house in Qarth.

Gsteff goes on to theorize (and I pretty much agree) that while GRRM really liked the glass candle concept, there was some redundancy with the comet and the book already was facing space issues. But wanting to keep the setup for later, he left the single mention and kept it vague (due to his troubles with the glass candles). The problem grew when he didn't have room to introduce them in the packed with action, ASoS. Then in AFFC, he opens the book dropping all of the lore in the prologue.

Similar to the comet, GRRM meant for the candles to have been return of magic to the world/birth of dragons. The citadel (who helped remove dragons from the world) was supposed to be freaking out.

• General Notes on the AFFC, Prologue

From another of gsteff's visits to Cushing (where the focus was The AFFC Prologue) we get information on what GRRM was trying to do once he got to the Prologue of what was ADWD at the time.

He emailed his editors regarding this prologue where he states that he wants to introduce the glass candles here, but admits to losing confidence in the concept. He wrote close to a dozen versions of the Prologue and since he couldn't find something to his satisfaction, he gives them three versions: "The Long Version", "The Short Version", and "The Rosey One".

The biggest difference from the published version is that the alchemist is not seeking a key, but instead a glass candle and he delivers a bit of new glass candle lore to Pate before Pate dies- the candles can be used to grant immortality.

There are more than the 4 candles from the published version, as all of the archmaesters have them, with Pate originally attempting to steal (but being unable to find) Vaellyn's candle.

If interested: AFFC, Long Prologue: Some Random Interesting Things

• The AFFC, Long Prologue

GRRM originally wrote several versions of the AFFC, Prologue as it was giving him fits. From the Long AFFC Prologue we find out that in this version (mainly that each archmaester has their own throne, mask and glass candle and the glass candles granted immortality through blood magic):

"They were made in Valyria, a thousand years ago", said the hooded man. "The Valyrian poet Esharys once wrote that men are candles. We all burn brightly for a while, but soon or late we gutter out, and the darkness takes us. But these candles... they burn, but they are not consumed." He chuckled. "Powers waken, Pate. Shadows stir. There are dragons in the world again, all things are possible for those who dare. Do you know what use the Valyrians made of these glass candles?"
...
The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with these. They could s/peak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. That would be useful wouldn't you say?" "We would not need ravens." "Only after battles."

and:

"Do you recall the poet that I spoke of?"
"Poet?"
"I begin to understand why you are still a novice. Esharys was a sorcerer as well, and when he wrote that men were candles he was making more than metaphors. The night is dark and full of terrors, and light can keep some fearful things at bay. Even death. Fire ire was at the root of all Valyrian magic. With such candles men made themselves immortal. Dragonglass burns it is not consumed... and so long as the flames lasts, the man whose life is bound to it cannot die." He turned back toward Pate. "The bond did need to be renewed from time to time. With blood."

If interested, you can read the entire Long Prologue: A Feast for Crows - Prologue Draft, the Long Version - Imgur

• The AFFC, Short Prologue

The short version was very close to the published version, except for the fact that the goal was still the candles. GRRM did not finish this version and used a placeholder:

"(missing stuff)" line, before Pate passes out from blood loss then wakes up in some room with the hooded man and the glass candle burning. George ends it with another placeholder "(( yadda yadda yadda Pate dies ))".

The 2003-2004 Outline

GRRM's 2003-2004 Outline for AFFC

Prolog: No glass candles - Pate - Steals book. Death of dragons

When we look at this in conjunction with the drafts from Cushing we can see how GRRM had seemingly changed his mind on the candles by this point and switched to the book.

Final Thoughts/Conclusion

The Citadel and Glass Candles

While the # of glass candles held by the citadel has changed, the fact that they were brought over "thousands of years" before the Doom is important. This means that even in the published version the Citadel had candles while dragons lived. This potentially means that similar to the Ravens and the magic of the old gods, over time the glass candles lost their true purpose/the Citadel didn't know how to use them correctly.

If interested: Dragon Rumors

Characters Who Have Glass Candles

The characters associated with glass candles in world are Marwyn, Quaithe and Urrathon Night-Walker. That said it is very possible that characters like Leyton Hightower (aka The Man in the High Castle) who has been locked atop the Hightower for a decade, might have one.

If interested: Glass Candles: Characters Who Have/Could Have Them

Characters Who Have Been Visited by a Glass Candle User

Most readers are aware of Quaithe's visit to Dany:

"I came another way. Your guards never saw me." -ADWD, Daenerys II

but with what we know about the users ability:

The sorcerers of the Freehold could see across mountains, seas, and deserts with one of these glass candles. They could enter a man's dreams and give him visions, and speak to one another half a world apart, seated before their candles. -AFFC, Samwell V

we must look at different dreams/visits with the thought that this is possible.

If interested: Dany's "Dreams" Aboard the Ship Balerion & Jaime's Second "Dream"

Euron Crow's Eye

If we combine quotes about Urrathon Euron's goals/agendas with what glass candles might supposedly grant you, it makes a bit more sense. Let's also remember that Quaithe's vision changed from "Kraken and Crow" to "Kraken and Darkflame" once GRRM changed the Greyjoy Plotline.

If interested: The Crow's Eye, Deification, Glass Candles & Immortality

Marwyn the Mage in Slaver's Bay

The Mage (who has history with several characters like Qyburn/Mirri) is hoping to take swan ship the Cinnamon Wind in order to beat the "Citadel's Man" to Daenerys. It is unknown if he has taken his glass candle with him.

If interested: The Mage's Arrival in Slaver's Bay

Deep Dives on Other Subjects

If you enjoyed this dive into Glass Candles in the ASOIAF universe, here are a couple more you might enjoy:

• Cyvasse: "Rules", Foreshadowing, etc.
• Unnatural History: Barth's Dragons, Wyrms & Wyverns
• Anything/Everything Old Nan

TLDR: GRRM has really struggled to write about the glass candles. Originally supposed to be introduced much more heavily in ACoK, George left a single mention (Urrathon Nightwalker) before not picking up the subject again until the AFFC, Prologue. GRRM struggled here so much he wrote around a dozen versions of this chapter before sending his editors three, while mentioning he is losing confidence in the subject. From drafts/outlines it seems possible that the original goal of the FM was a candle (which were much more common than the 4 currently held by the citadel). The glass candles seemingly granted immortality, but that has not been mentioned in the published material.

Not like the bastard of a high born lord. Just straight up a commoner.

With validate, I don't mean as "they won", I mean that their victory is framed in a positive light. Even the Dance of Dragons, framed in-universe as a mutual slaughter where nobody won still has Aegon III framed as a sympathetic figure who healed the wounds (including literally handholding Lord Lannister as he died of fever, this cannot be more sympathetic than a external propagandist)

Like, in hindsight, for his usual mockery of Monarchy and the lies of nobility, both major Targaryen civil wars, the Blackfyres and the Greens have the "illegitimate" side being framed as the most disgusting to modern eyes and ultimately wiped out.

There is Maegor the Cruel, who is the least studied of them because he has no story dealing with him like the House of Dragon show or the Dunk and Egg books focusing in the aftermath. In his case, he is unambiguously villainous in-universe (as, having no supporters who are framed as "evil conservatives who we must tolerate in the family fate), so I don't count him much. But he also enters this because he is explicitly framed as sterile, having no Heir (not even a named heir) that survives him and joins the bloodline (like, if Maegor has a Targeryen liutenant nephew he names as heir in case he has no kids, and that nephew continued in the family up to end up in the main line, I wouldn't count Maegor as "wiped out", but he doesn't)

Greens vs Blacks: Greens openly commit a coup by hiding the King's death and murdering nobles who stayed loyal to Viserys' will, they're framed as sexists power grabbers who want to rule simply by pure greed and aristocratic malice (even when both sides are by definition aristocrat, the Greens are given all the "Decadence of the Ancient Regime" tropes). Technically they win the war, but its ultimately framed as them being wiped out completely by the diabolus ex machine's death of Aegon's II daughter.

The Blacks are equally aristocratic and clearly no less brutal, as their support for the Red Kraken shows, but they are given a larger-than-life framing. Rhaenyra is a tyrant, but she is framed as a tragic figure who is actually rightful, but betrayed for everyone. Their brutality is real, but its despicted as "genuine", in a artistic sense.

Aemond Targaryen (Green) is certainly a powerful warrior, but he is framed as essentially a bully who deserved his eye mutilation as a teenager and was given grand power. Daemon (Black) is certainly a brutal warlord whose criminal record matches Aemond 1 to 1, but he is framed as this grand Dark Warrior who died taking down the upstart with him.

Blackfyres vs Targaryen: The Blackfyres are framed as anti intellectual xenophobes who hate Dorne and want to sabotage the peace. Their supporters are ultimately framed as the Lost Causes of Westeros, also are ultimately wiped out with no known descendents. Driven by machismo and martial militarism. Which here are framed as a extreme, radical worldview despite Nobles being, by definition, military leaders in a Feudal world.

Here, their enemies here are even less ambiguous. The Targaryens are portrayed as a fundamentally decent goverment who is simply dealing with the spiteful act of their former King Aegon IV to legitimize his bastards to deliberately ruin the family. And somehow, the Blackfyres all fall in the bait and nobody decides to stay as a cadet branch. Aegon V is our main POV, and he is a sweet child who fundamentally had a nice family. Bloodraven is their ruthless spymaster, but he is ultimately framed as a Evil fighting Evil driven by brotherly love and true loyalty who ultimately is exiled because Aegon V is too heroic to keep him anymore, something which he accepts with pride to start his ascention into demigodhood.

I'd however, acknowledge the handling of the Lannisters as unambiguously good during the Dance as a really bold move. They're with the Greens, but Tyland Lannister is framed as their token hero and the brutality of the Red Kraken being essentially "the epilogue" means that the Lannister House gets to unambiguously play the hero after the main war ends. However, this actually is what makes the fact that the houses are relative treated as having the same alignement in the sympathy spectrum for the most part to be quite lame. Cregan Stark essentially just avoided the war and returned to crown the Blacks, but the story genuinely want you to see him as a practical no-nonsense guy who wants to stabilize the realm.

Also, Ice used the behead Larys really is the finisher. "Yes, Eddard's sword killed the villain of the Dance, epic,right?"

Only Aerys is the time that someone opposing House Targeryen and betraying them, Robert as a Targaryen cousin, is framed as sympathetic and deserving of winning.

Weird.

There is not much people who can challenge the Targaryen but the story goes its way to ensure that those who do will be completely wiped out.

Jaehaera and Aegon III married is the standard ending for this type of stalemated civil war. But then GRRM makes Jaehaera die young because dunno, "Sorry girl, but your dad's bloodline has to die so it doesn't corrupt Dany and Jon"??

I guess that technically you can say that even the Baratheon count, but given Gendry's survival (show) or Edric Storm's survival (books), I'd say they avoid the curse. But they also lose the crown in a generation (unless if you are a timeloop pro Yezen theorist, then the Baratheon actually avoid this given the endgame is Brandon x Shireen).

But well, it means that only House Baratheon was the ONLY time that a Targaryen branch house (even outside Robert being a Targ cousin, the Family descends from Aegon I's half brother) who challenged them was framed as sympathetic and righteous.